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Here is an interesting bit found online, posted here for your edification.
************************************************************************
SYMPTOMS OF PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM (c)1996 William J. Beaty
************************************************************************
THIS PAGE: amasci.com/pathsk2.txt
MAIN PAGE: amasci.com/weird/wclose.html
Many members of the mainstream scientific community react with extreme
hostility when presented with certain claims. This can be seen in their
emotional responses to current controversies such as UFO abductions, Cold
Fusion, cryptozoology, psi, and numerous others. The scientists react not
with pragmatism and a wish to get to the bottom of things, but instead
with the same tactics religious groups use to suppress heretics: hostile
emotional attacks, circular reasoning, dehumanizing of the 'enemy',
extreme closed-mindedness, intellectually dishonest reasoning, underhanded
debating tactics, negative gossip, and all manner of name-calling and
character assassination.
Two can play at that game! Therefore, I call their behavior "Pathological
Skepticism," a term I base upon skeptics' assertion that various
unacceptable ideas are "Pathological Science." Below is a list of the
symptoms of pathological skepticism I have encountered, and examples of
the irrational reasoning they tend to produce.
(Note: all the quotes are artificial examples)
1. Belief that theories determine phenomena, rather than the reverse.
"The phenomenon you have observed is impossible, crazy stuff. We know
of no mechanism which could explain your results, so we have grave
suspicions about the accuracy your report. There is no room for your
results in modern theory, so they simply cannot exist. You are
obviously the victim of errors, hoaxers, or self-delusion. We need
not publish your paper, and any attempts at replicating your results
would be a waste of time. Your requests for funding are misguided,
and should be turned down."
2. Erecting barriers against new ideas by constantly altering the
requirements for acceptance. (A practice called "moving the
goalposts.")
"I'll believe it when 'X' happens" (but when it does, this immediately
is changed to: "I'll believe it when 'Y' happens.")
Example:
"I won't believe it until major laboratories publish papers in this
field. They have? That means nothing! Major labs have been wrong
before. I'll believe it when stores sell products which use the
effect. They do? That means nothing, after all, stores sell magic
healing pendants and Ouija boards. I'll believe it when a Nobel
Prize winning researcher gets behind that work. One has? Well
that means nothing! That person is probably old and dotty like
Dr. Pauling and his vitamin-C..." etc.
3. Belief that fundamental concepts in science rarely change, coupled
with a "herd following" behavior where the individual changes his/her
opinions when colleagues all do, all the while remaining blind to the
fact that any opinions had ever changed.
"The study of (space flight, endosymbiosis, drillcore bacteria,
child abuse, cold fusion, etc.) has always been a legitimate
pursuit. If scientists ever ridiculed the reported evidence or
tried to stop such research, it certainly was not a majority of
scientists. It must have been just a few misguided souls, and must
have happened in the distant past."
4. Belief that science is guided by consensus beliefs and majority rule,
rather than by evidence. Indulging in behavior which reinforces the
negative effects of consensus beliefs while minimizing the impact of
any evidence which contradicts those beliefs.
"I don't care how good your evidence is, I won't believe it until the
majority of scientists also find it acceptable. Your evidence
cannot be right, because it would mean that hundreds of textbooks
and thousands of learned experts are wrong.
5. Adopting a prejudiced stance against a theory or an observed phenomena
without first investigating the details, then using this as
justification for refusing to investigate the details.
"Your ideas are obviously garbage. What, try to replicate your
evidence? I wouldn't soil my hands. And besides, it would be
a terrible waste of time and money, since there's no question about
the outcome."
6. Maintaining an unshakable stance of hostile, intolerant skepticism,
and when anyone complains of this, accusing them of paranoid delusion.
Remaining blind to scientists' widespread practice of intellectual
suppression of unorthodox findings, and to the practice of "expulsion
of heretics" through secret, back-room accusations of deviance or
insanity.
"You say that no one will listen to your ideas, and now the funding
for your other projects is cut off for no reason? And colleagues
are secretly passing around a petition demanding that you be
removed? If you're thinking along THOSE lines, then you obviously
are delusional and should be seeking professional help."
7. Ignoring the lessons of history, and therefore opening the way for
repeating them again and again.
"Scientists of old ridiculed the germ theory, airplanes, space
flight, meteors, etc. They were certain that science of the time
had everything figured out, and that major new discoveries were no
longer possible. Isn't it good that we researchers of today are much
more wise, and such things can no longer happen!"
8. *Denial* of the lessons of history. An inability to admit that
science has made serious mistakes in the past. Maintaining a belief
that good ideas and discoveries are never accidentally suppressed by
closed-mindedness, then revising history to fit this belief.
"Throughout history, the *majority* of scientists never ridiculed
flying machines, spacecraft, television, continental drift, reports
of ball lightning, meteors, sonoluminescence, etc. These
discoveries are not examples of so-called 'paradigm shifts', they
are obvious examples of the slow, steady, forward progress made by
science!"
9. Using circular arguments to avoid accepting evidence which supports
unusual discoveries, or to prevent publication of this evidence.
"I do not have to inspect the evidence because I know it's wrong.
I know it's wrong because I've never seen any positive evidence."
"We will not publish your paper, since these results have not been
replicated by any other researchers. We will not publish your
paper, since it is merely a replication of work which was done
earlier, by other researchers."
10. Accusing opponents of delusion, lying, or even financial fraud, where
no evidence for fraud exists other than the supposed impossibility of
evidence being presented.
"Don't trust researchers who study parapsychology. They constantly
cheat and lie in order to support their strange worldviews. Very
few of them have been caught at it, but it's not necessary to do
so, since any fool can see that the positive evidence for psi can
only be created by people who are either disturbed or dishonest.
11. Unwarranted confidence that the unknown is in the far distance, not
staring us in the face.
"Your evidence cannot be real because it's not possible that
thousands of researchers could have overlooked it for all these
years. If your discovery was real, the scientists who work in that
field would already know about it."
12. Belief that certain fields of science are complete, that scientific
revolutions never happen, and that any further progress must occur
only in brushing up the details.
"Physics is a mature field. Future progress can only lie in
increasing the energies of particle accelerators, and in refining
the precision of well-known measurements. Your discovery cannot
be true, since it would mean we'd have to throw out all our hard-
won knowledge about physics."
13. Excusing the ridicule, trivialization, and the scorn which is directed
at 'maverick' ideas and at anomalous evidence. Insisting that
sneering and derisive emotional attacks constitute a desirable and
properly scientific natural selection force.
"It is right that new discoveries be made to overcome large
barriers. That way only the good ideas will become accepted.
If some important discoveries are suppressed in this process, well,
that's just the price we have to pay to defend science against the
fast-growing hoards of crackpots who threaten to destroy it."
14. Justifying any refusal to inspect evidence by claiming a "slippery
slope." Using the necessary judicious allocation of time and funding
as a weapon to prevent investigation of unusual, novel, or threatening
ideas.
"If we take your unlikely discovery seriously, all scientists
everywhere will have to accept every other crackpot idea too, and
then we'll waste all of our time checking out crackpot claims."
15. A blindness to phenomena which do not fit the current belief system,
coupled with a denial that beliefs affect perceptions.
"Thomas Kuhn's 'paradigm shifts' and sociology's 'cognitive
dissonance' obviously do not apply to average, rational scientists.
Scientists are objective, so they are not prone to the psychological
failings which plague normal humans. Scientists always welcome any
data which indicates a need to revise their current knowledge. Their
"beliefs" don't affect their perceptions, scientists don't have
"beliefs", science is not a religion!
16. A belief that all scientific progress is made by small, safe, obvious
steps, that widely-accepted theories are never overturned, and that no
new discoveries come from anomalies observed.
"All your observations are obviously mistakes. They couldn't
possibly be real, because if they were real, it would mean that
major parts of current science are wrong, and we would have to
rewrite large portions of we know about physics. This never
occurs. Science proceeds by building on earlier works, never by
tearing them down. Therefore it is right that we reject evidence
which contradicts contemporary theory, and recommend that funding
of such research not be continued."
17. Hiding any evidence of personal past ridicule of ideas which are later
proved valid. Profound narcissism; an extreme need to always be
right, a fear of having personal errors revealed, and a habit of
silently covering up past mistakes.
" X is obviously ridiculous, and its supporters are crack-
pots who are giving us a bad name and should be silenced."
But if X is proved true, the assertion suddenly becomes:
"Since 'X' is obviously true, it follows that..."
18. Belief in the lofty status of modern science but with consequent
blindness to, and denial of, its faults. A tendency to view shameful
events in the history of modern science as being beneficial, and a
lack of any desire to fix contemporary problems.
"It was right that Dr. Wegner's career was wrecked; that he was
treated as a crackpot, ridiculed, and died in shame. His evidence
for continental drift convinced no one. And besides, he did not
propose a mechanism to explain the phenomena."
19. A belief that Business and the Press have no tendency towards close-
mindedness and suppression of novelty, and that their actions are
never are guided by the publicly-expressed judgement of scientists.
"If the Wright Brothers' claims were true, we would be reading about
it in all the papers, and flying-machine companies would be
springing up left and right. Neither of these is occurring,
therefor the Wright's claims are obviously a lie and a hoax.
20. Refusing to be swayed when other researchers find evidence supporting
unconventional phenomena or theories. If other reputable people
change sides and accept the unorthodox view, this is seen as evidence
of their gullibility or insanity, not as evidence that perhaps the
unconventional view is correct.
"I'll believe it when someone like Dr. P believes it."
But when Dr. P changes sides, this becomes:
"Dr. P did some great work in his early years, but then he destroyed
his career by getting involved with that irrational crackpot
stuff."
21. Elevating skepticism to a lofty position, yet indulging in hypocrisy
and opening the way to pathological thinking by refusing to ever cast
a critical, SKEPTICAL eye upon the irrational behavior of scoffers.
"Criticizing skeptics is never beneficial. It even represents a
danger to science. One should never criticize science, it just
gives ammunition to the enemy; it aids the irrational, anti-science
hoards who would destroy our fragile edifice."
22. Belief that modern scientists as a group lack faults, and therefore
clinging to any slim justifications in order to ignore the arguments
of those who hope to eliminate the flaws in Science.
"I think we can safely ignore Thomas Kuhn's STRUCTURES OF SCIENTIFIC
REVOLUTIONS. Despite his physics training we can see that Kuhn was
an outsider to science; he obviously doesn't have a good grasp on
real science. Outsiders never can see things in the proper positive
light, it takes a working scientist to see the real situation.
Also, he stressed his central themes way too much, so I think we can
ignore him as simply being a sensationalist. And besides, if he's
digging up dirt regarding science, then he must have a hidden agenda.
I bet we'll find that he's a Christian or something, probably a
creationist."
23. Blindness to the widespread existence of the above symptoms. Belief
that scientists are inherently objective, and rarely fall victim to
these faults. Excusing the frequent appearance of these symptoms as
being isolated instances which do not comprise an accumulation of
evidence for the common practice of Pathological Skepticism.
"This 'Pathological Skepticism' does not exist. Kooks and
crackpots deserve the hostile mistreatment we give them, but
anyone who does similar things to skeptics is terribly misguided.
Those who criticize skeptics are a danger to Science itself, and we
must stop them."
See also:
Zen and the art of debunkery, Dan Drasin
amasci.com/pathskep.html
Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Skepticism
mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner...igns.html
************************************************************************
SYMPTOMS OF PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM (c)1996 William J. Beaty
************************************************************************
THIS PAGE: amasci.com/pathsk2.txt
MAIN PAGE: amasci.com/weird/wclose.html
Many members of the mainstream scientific community react with extreme
hostility when presented with certain claims. This can be seen in their
emotional responses to current controversies such as UFO abductions, Cold
Fusion, cryptozoology, psi, and numerous others. The scientists react not
with pragmatism and a wish to get to the bottom of things, but instead
with the same tactics religious groups use to suppress heretics: hostile
emotional attacks, circular reasoning, dehumanizing of the 'enemy',
extreme closed-mindedness, intellectually dishonest reasoning, underhanded
debating tactics, negative gossip, and all manner of name-calling and
character assassination.
Two can play at that game! Therefore, I call their behavior "Pathological
Skepticism," a term I base upon skeptics' assertion that various
unacceptable ideas are "Pathological Science." Below is a list of the
symptoms of pathological skepticism I have encountered, and examples of
the irrational reasoning they tend to produce.
(Note: all the quotes are artificial examples)
1. Belief that theories determine phenomena, rather than the reverse.
"The phenomenon you have observed is impossible, crazy stuff. We know
of no mechanism which could explain your results, so we have grave
suspicions about the accuracy your report. There is no room for your
results in modern theory, so they simply cannot exist. You are
obviously the victim of errors, hoaxers, or self-delusion. We need
not publish your paper, and any attempts at replicating your results
would be a waste of time. Your requests for funding are misguided,
and should be turned down."
2. Erecting barriers against new ideas by constantly altering the
requirements for acceptance. (A practice called "moving the
goalposts.")
"I'll believe it when 'X' happens" (but when it does, this immediately
is changed to: "I'll believe it when 'Y' happens.")
Example:
"I won't believe it until major laboratories publish papers in this
field. They have? That means nothing! Major labs have been wrong
before. I'll believe it when stores sell products which use the
effect. They do? That means nothing, after all, stores sell magic
healing pendants and Ouija boards. I'll believe it when a Nobel
Prize winning researcher gets behind that work. One has? Well
that means nothing! That person is probably old and dotty like
Dr. Pauling and his vitamin-C..." etc.
3. Belief that fundamental concepts in science rarely change, coupled
with a "herd following" behavior where the individual changes his/her
opinions when colleagues all do, all the while remaining blind to the
fact that any opinions had ever changed.
"The study of (space flight, endosymbiosis, drillcore bacteria,
child abuse, cold fusion, etc.) has always been a legitimate
pursuit. If scientists ever ridiculed the reported evidence or
tried to stop such research, it certainly was not a majority of
scientists. It must have been just a few misguided souls, and must
have happened in the distant past."
4. Belief that science is guided by consensus beliefs and majority rule,
rather than by evidence. Indulging in behavior which reinforces the
negative effects of consensus beliefs while minimizing the impact of
any evidence which contradicts those beliefs.
"I don't care how good your evidence is, I won't believe it until the
majority of scientists also find it acceptable. Your evidence
cannot be right, because it would mean that hundreds of textbooks
and thousands of learned experts are wrong.
5. Adopting a prejudiced stance against a theory or an observed phenomena
without first investigating the details, then using this as
justification for refusing to investigate the details.
"Your ideas are obviously garbage. What, try to replicate your
evidence? I wouldn't soil my hands. And besides, it would be
a terrible waste of time and money, since there's no question about
the outcome."
6. Maintaining an unshakable stance of hostile, intolerant skepticism,
and when anyone complains of this, accusing them of paranoid delusion.
Remaining blind to scientists' widespread practice of intellectual
suppression of unorthodox findings, and to the practice of "expulsion
of heretics" through secret, back-room accusations of deviance or
insanity.
"You say that no one will listen to your ideas, and now the funding
for your other projects is cut off for no reason? And colleagues
are secretly passing around a petition demanding that you be
removed? If you're thinking along THOSE lines, then you obviously
are delusional and should be seeking professional help."
7. Ignoring the lessons of history, and therefore opening the way for
repeating them again and again.
"Scientists of old ridiculed the germ theory, airplanes, space
flight, meteors, etc. They were certain that science of the time
had everything figured out, and that major new discoveries were no
longer possible. Isn't it good that we researchers of today are much
more wise, and such things can no longer happen!"
8. *Denial* of the lessons of history. An inability to admit that
science has made serious mistakes in the past. Maintaining a belief
that good ideas and discoveries are never accidentally suppressed by
closed-mindedness, then revising history to fit this belief.
"Throughout history, the *majority* of scientists never ridiculed
flying machines, spacecraft, television, continental drift, reports
of ball lightning, meteors, sonoluminescence, etc. These
discoveries are not examples of so-called 'paradigm shifts', they
are obvious examples of the slow, steady, forward progress made by
science!"
9. Using circular arguments to avoid accepting evidence which supports
unusual discoveries, or to prevent publication of this evidence.
"I do not have to inspect the evidence because I know it's wrong.
I know it's wrong because I've never seen any positive evidence."
"We will not publish your paper, since these results have not been
replicated by any other researchers. We will not publish your
paper, since it is merely a replication of work which was done
earlier, by other researchers."
10. Accusing opponents of delusion, lying, or even financial fraud, where
no evidence for fraud exists other than the supposed impossibility of
evidence being presented.
"Don't trust researchers who study parapsychology. They constantly
cheat and lie in order to support their strange worldviews. Very
few of them have been caught at it, but it's not necessary to do
so, since any fool can see that the positive evidence for psi can
only be created by people who are either disturbed or dishonest.
11. Unwarranted confidence that the unknown is in the far distance, not
staring us in the face.
"Your evidence cannot be real because it's not possible that
thousands of researchers could have overlooked it for all these
years. If your discovery was real, the scientists who work in that
field would already know about it."
12. Belief that certain fields of science are complete, that scientific
revolutions never happen, and that any further progress must occur
only in brushing up the details.
"Physics is a mature field. Future progress can only lie in
increasing the energies of particle accelerators, and in refining
the precision of well-known measurements. Your discovery cannot
be true, since it would mean we'd have to throw out all our hard-
won knowledge about physics."
13. Excusing the ridicule, trivialization, and the scorn which is directed
at 'maverick' ideas and at anomalous evidence. Insisting that
sneering and derisive emotional attacks constitute a desirable and
properly scientific natural selection force.
"It is right that new discoveries be made to overcome large
barriers. That way only the good ideas will become accepted.
If some important discoveries are suppressed in this process, well,
that's just the price we have to pay to defend science against the
fast-growing hoards of crackpots who threaten to destroy it."
14. Justifying any refusal to inspect evidence by claiming a "slippery
slope." Using the necessary judicious allocation of time and funding
as a weapon to prevent investigation of unusual, novel, or threatening
ideas.
"If we take your unlikely discovery seriously, all scientists
everywhere will have to accept every other crackpot idea too, and
then we'll waste all of our time checking out crackpot claims."
15. A blindness to phenomena which do not fit the current belief system,
coupled with a denial that beliefs affect perceptions.
"Thomas Kuhn's 'paradigm shifts' and sociology's 'cognitive
dissonance' obviously do not apply to average, rational scientists.
Scientists are objective, so they are not prone to the psychological
failings which plague normal humans. Scientists always welcome any
data which indicates a need to revise their current knowledge. Their
"beliefs" don't affect their perceptions, scientists don't have
"beliefs", science is not a religion!
16. A belief that all scientific progress is made by small, safe, obvious
steps, that widely-accepted theories are never overturned, and that no
new discoveries come from anomalies observed.
"All your observations are obviously mistakes. They couldn't
possibly be real, because if they were real, it would mean that
major parts of current science are wrong, and we would have to
rewrite large portions of we know about physics. This never
occurs. Science proceeds by building on earlier works, never by
tearing them down. Therefore it is right that we reject evidence
which contradicts contemporary theory, and recommend that funding
of such research not be continued."
17. Hiding any evidence of personal past ridicule of ideas which are later
proved valid. Profound narcissism; an extreme need to always be
right, a fear of having personal errors revealed, and a habit of
silently covering up past mistakes.
" X is obviously ridiculous, and its supporters are crack-
pots who are giving us a bad name and should be silenced."
But if X is proved true, the assertion suddenly becomes:
"Since 'X' is obviously true, it follows that..."
18. Belief in the lofty status of modern science but with consequent
blindness to, and denial of, its faults. A tendency to view shameful
events in the history of modern science as being beneficial, and a
lack of any desire to fix contemporary problems.
"It was right that Dr. Wegner's career was wrecked; that he was
treated as a crackpot, ridiculed, and died in shame. His evidence
for continental drift convinced no one. And besides, he did not
propose a mechanism to explain the phenomena."
19. A belief that Business and the Press have no tendency towards close-
mindedness and suppression of novelty, and that their actions are
never are guided by the publicly-expressed judgement of scientists.
"If the Wright Brothers' claims were true, we would be reading about
it in all the papers, and flying-machine companies would be
springing up left and right. Neither of these is occurring,
therefor the Wright's claims are obviously a lie and a hoax.
20. Refusing to be swayed when other researchers find evidence supporting
unconventional phenomena or theories. If other reputable people
change sides and accept the unorthodox view, this is seen as evidence
of their gullibility or insanity, not as evidence that perhaps the
unconventional view is correct.
"I'll believe it when someone like Dr. P believes it."
But when Dr. P changes sides, this becomes:
"Dr. P did some great work in his early years, but then he destroyed
his career by getting involved with that irrational crackpot
stuff."
21. Elevating skepticism to a lofty position, yet indulging in hypocrisy
and opening the way to pathological thinking by refusing to ever cast
a critical, SKEPTICAL eye upon the irrational behavior of scoffers.
"Criticizing skeptics is never beneficial. It even represents a
danger to science. One should never criticize science, it just
gives ammunition to the enemy; it aids the irrational, anti-science
hoards who would destroy our fragile edifice."
22. Belief that modern scientists as a group lack faults, and therefore
clinging to any slim justifications in order to ignore the arguments
of those who hope to eliminate the flaws in Science.
"I think we can safely ignore Thomas Kuhn's STRUCTURES OF SCIENTIFIC
REVOLUTIONS. Despite his physics training we can see that Kuhn was
an outsider to science; he obviously doesn't have a good grasp on
real science. Outsiders never can see things in the proper positive
light, it takes a working scientist to see the real situation.
Also, he stressed his central themes way too much, so I think we can
ignore him as simply being a sensationalist. And besides, if he's
digging up dirt regarding science, then he must have a hidden agenda.
I bet we'll find that he's a Christian or something, probably a
creationist."
23. Blindness to the widespread existence of the above symptoms. Belief
that scientists are inherently objective, and rarely fall victim to
these faults. Excusing the frequent appearance of these symptoms as
being isolated instances which do not comprise an accumulation of
evidence for the common practice of Pathological Skepticism.
"This 'Pathological Skepticism' does not exist. Kooks and
crackpots deserve the hostile mistreatment we give them, but
anyone who does similar things to skeptics is terribly misguided.
Those who criticize skeptics are a danger to Science itself, and we
must stop them."
See also:
Zen and the art of debunkery, Dan Drasin
amasci.com/pathskep.html
Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Skepticism
mathpost.la.asu.edu/~boerner...igns.html
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More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Thu, July 12, 2007 - 5:06 PMMore info here:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sat, July 14, 2007 - 10:37 AMpseudo skepticism>>>
I doubt your point of view is objective.
The burden of proof is on you.
Secondly that tribe... is an opinion based social site... most likely you define "pseudoskeptics" as people you disdain...
When you speak of a group of
"pseudoskeptics" it is to discredit... a group. A more functional approach would be to disprove arguments that involve some type of fallacy... and consider that a persons bad argument does not preclude their ability to be right. -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sat, July 14, 2007 - 4:45 PMAre you retarded mike?
Your post is soo deformed I can hardly read it w/out laughing.
You make accusations but fail to back them up, and then commit the very errors and ofenses you accuse me of.
You make suggestions that you yourself prove (at the very same time as you are making them) that you don't uphold.
And your assumptions?!
NEW FLASH MIKE
I didn't even WRITE IT! capice?
***It isn't my literature.*****
I can only guess that you must be one of those who smoke profound amounts of pot and then believe they have suddenly become very deep, or perhaps there is some sort of brain dammage causing this?
Your post is SO stupid, and so misdirected it makes me not even want to POST on tribe anymore.
It's like trying to give a philosophy lecture in a halfway house!!!!
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sat, July 14, 2007 - 6:01 PMand then commit the very errors and ofenses you accuse me of. >>>
And I was afraid you wouldn't realize I was making fun of you.
Shame on me.
You're ad hominem needs work though.
Mr. "You make accusations but fail to back them up"
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sat, July 14, 2007 - 9:01 PMI wouldn't have read irony into your first post here either... not sure if that's because of the lack of body language and verbal cues or my own tendency to read messages literally (possibly related to Asperger's) or some combination... -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 1:06 AMNo, there's nothing wrong with your powers of observation Ike, he's a prat.
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 1:04 AMIt's not ad hominem you prat.
Ad hominem would be if I claimed that your irrelevant post was irrelevant BECAUSE you are a prat.
I did not do that. Your post is irrelevant and this is what makes you a prat, not the other way around.
Shall I detail the many sorted and unseemly ways in which it is irrelevant?
would you be more satisfied then?
I have avoided it till now because I'd hoped to avoid thread drift, but if it will bring the discussion back on track it would be my pleasure.
HOWEVER, be warned that IF I do so and you continue to throw formal debate jargon at me without demonstrating one jot of inclination to put it to use, then I will really be done with this conversation. It isn't much use arguing with someone who doesn't get what you are talking about. -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 7:12 AMAd Hominem/formal debate jargon >>>>
Prat.
Argument to the man. ( In case that's unclear to you I'll restate the obvious... it's a commonly used term on social sites)
That's clear.
Shall I detail the many sorted and unseemly ways in which it is irrelevant?
Your post is irrelevant and this is what makes you a prat, not the other way around.>>>>
Your formal debate jargon.
Of course nothing supports your version of weak ad hominem...
I will really be done with this conversation>>>>
That's a graceful way to lose an argument.
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 1:46 AMLook it's obvious you haven't got a clue who I am here...let me demonstrate.
I am all for healthy objective skepticism, and I even agree to a certain degree that many pseudosciences are vast quackeries lacking in solid supporting facts and possessing often broad sweeping generalities and magical thinking where there should be hard evidence.
that's not my motivation for posting this 'thing' I found online. In truth I don't even agree with it all, I think there are ingrained agendas strewn throughout it, but it does have some substance and some merit, and it addresses specifically a subject which has long troubled me.
My motivation is only this: that it be understood that established method is not the sole criteria by which valuable advances are founded.
I did not post the original thread to have an argument about it, You don't have anything to go on in saying that I am less than objective,
The burden of proof IS NOT on me because *I* am not making any claims other than that you are way off target.
Please don't think I am saying that your post doesn't literally make any sense...it is true it's identifiably in English, and your points by themselves make sense...it's just that they don't actually have anything to do with what is going on here.
Lets get this straight shall we?
1. IT ISN'T something I wrote, it's something I found online and appreciated, therefore I decided to share IT and the wiki entry on the same subject. If you wish to argue, go argue with the author or with wikipedia, and not with me.
2. There is no burden of proof upon me for any claim other than that your post is irrelevant and I proved that in point '1' directly above.
3. You have no grounds to attack my objectivity, and no proof, and no means of being able to prove.......hmmm...anything.
4. I did not invent the terms "Pseudoskepticism" or "pseudoskeptic" or "PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM". I don't even prefer to use such terms because I feel it is safer for the sake of keeping things comprehensible to avoid name calling. Ways of being (in my experience) shift pretty organically, and such names do not reflect this therefore they are seldom efficient representational devices an any other than the arbitrary sense, and they are bad for that also because the carry connotations of features which might not be present at any point. On the whole I vastly prefer objective descriptions of subjects in the place of trendy names with greater or lessor degrees of popularity.
5. If I have disdain, it is for those who prefer to waste the time of more creative and intelligent people, and get in their way so they can feel better about the fact that they have no creativity themselves or don;t understand its value. The fact of the matter is that that isn't some definable group, it's everyone for a moment or a day or an instant with only a few rare exceptions, you see character traits are not people.
Ideals are not people. Ways of thinking are not people.
6. I think I have illustrated that I do not require your lessons in logic.
7. If your post WAS a joke you DO need to add smilies, or something like this *Joking*, or SOMETHING to indicate that it is humor or people will think you are funny...probably not in the way you would prefer. -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 8:36 AM
7. If your post WAS a joke you DO need to add smilies, or something like this *Joking*,>>>
Then it wouldn't be called an innuendo.
3. You have no grounds to attack my objectivity, and no proof, and no means of being able to prove.......hmmm...anything.
<<<"Your ideas are obviously garbage. What, try to replicate your evidence? I wouldn't soil my hands. And besides, it would be a terrible waste of time and money, since there's no question about the outcome." >>>>
You demonstrate this example with your attitude.
Maintaining an unshakable stance of hostile, intolerant skepticism,
and when anyone complains of this, accusing them of paranoid delusion. >>>>
You display this trait.
Besides these aspects from your own "research" the fact that you become angry and engage in name calling when you are challenged is reason enough to question your objectivity.
5. If I have disdain, it is for those who prefer to waste the time of more creative and intelligent people, and get in their way so they can feel better about the fact that they have no creativity themselves or don;t understand its value.>>>>
If you find a filter for this let me know... we are on tribe... you can either constantly damn people for not living up to your *standard of excellence* or you can choose not to engage it.
And... You are stating you are one of the "authorities of intelligence and creativity on tribe"?
6. I think I have illustrated that I do not require your lessons in logic. >>>
I'm not giving lessons. I'm just pointing out flaws in your reasoning. Nothing personal.
I don't even prefer to use such terms because I feel it is safer for the sake of keeping things comprehensible to avoid name calling.>>>>
I'm dyin' here !
That's why you called me retarded and a prat !
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 9:51 AMman...for the last time....THERE IS NO ARGUMENT HERE!
YOU started something just to start something, i was rude, because it annoyed me to tears.
As for my ideas being garbage? you don't know my ideas I haven't stated them, your not doing anything but building a strawman.
I'm sorry...I just don't get your motivation for doing what you are doing. You must know it isn't right. Please stop using my words to entertain yourself. Please stop flaming me. etc.
As far as I can tell you just don't get it and don't want to, or you are playing an immature little game.
As far as loosing gracefully goes.
refusing to argue with someone who makes false claims tosses opinions without a care and can only seem to improve there stance by calling them self right over and over is never loosing (and I do mean you because this is very much what you have done)
Is Winning! because it means I no longer have to deal with you!
I used to have the patience to dive into these sort of debate games..you know...I just don't now.
Creating the impression that you are beating the living hell out of someone by using your tricks will get old quickly , this is what you will find Mike, and then you will be bored.
And you know what?
you are still a Prat, but more precisely you're a jerk for starting this.
and now I am done.
say whatever you want...you wont get a reply.
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 10:29 AMAs for my ideas being garbage?>>>>
You need to read your own post.
That was the attitude YOU displayed. I used the quote to illustrate that.
As far as I can tell you just don't get it and don't want to, or you are playing an immature little game.>>>>
Commonly used to extract one's self from the ignominy of eating crow.
Your words comprise your own standard of excellence... which you are then willing to bend... as when you made ad hominem attacks on me.
you are still a Prat, but more precisely you're a jerk for starting this. >>>
again ... you illustrate your predisposition for name calling... and the violation of your own... anti-name calling philosophy.
you wont get a reply. >>>>
*slams door on the way out*
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 10:52 AMFOR ANYONE WHO IS STILL READING THIS:
Notice how this individual who still refuses to address the original point...
( that being that it isn't my literature and pretending that it is is setting up a strawman, that is an argument to attack which isn't mine, for whatever reason)
...will not stop?
I admit, that the initial name calling was uncalled for, I should have explained his mistake calmly....however I must add, that I doubt it would have made a difference. He is obviously just out to "play debate". And not remotely interested in the actual subject of the thread WHICH I must also add has now suffered tremendous neglect.
Further debate on the subject of the strawman constructed here by Mike is willful thread-jacking, and nothing more.
If he actually wished to carry this sad debate forward for its own merits, he could begin a separate thread for that discussion, but he doesn't, and that is the evidence of his intentions on this thread, as well as an indication that this debate hasn't got enough substance to stand on it's own as a thread.
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 11:06 AMBetter.
I agree with the assertion that many of the descriptions of pseudoskepticism have a high frequency...
part of being skeptical is that I am compelled to re-examine my own assertions...
so with that in mind... I look at the argument as the manifestation... not a personality trait... which is what the pseudo skeptic post intimates.
A case in point :
The argument for the existence of God : God is the author of logic, All logic is dependent on the existence of God, therefore because God is the priority here... logic can be dispensed with.
I don't see that as a personality trait... It may be a function of being invested in dogma... or a result of social pressures...
but at it's heart the focal point is that it is a FALLACIOUS argument.
I understand that the themes are similar...
but a broader definition as a list of fallacious arguments is more instructive.
P. S.-
The argument for the existence of God is used to uphold...
Anti-choice on abortion, creationism/intelligent design, and teaching religion in public schools as just a few examples. -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 11:33 AMYou...DO understand that the original post IS NOT MY LITERATURE....yes?
Please address this, so far you have failed to do so, and I expect you will ignore this comment. -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 11:45 AMYou...DO understand that the original post IS NOT MY LITERATURE....yes? >>>
Yes.
Your posting it means you assert a commonality with it ... right ? -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 11:48 AM"Yes.
Your posting it means you assert a commonality with it ... right ?"
NO not right.
I posted it to share it, and to discuss it and learn from the different ways in which many people might view it.
You might try inquiry next time.
I agree that there are brands of skepticism which are not at all objective, but I am decided on neither the opinions expressed (and they are certainly there) in the text nor the attitudes.
I certainly agree that while any brand of skepticism contains a degree of fallacious reasoning or argumentative utility that it isn't objective and hence that only proportionate stock should be placed in it, but it can be difficult especially when the one arguing from a position of fallacy is also arguing from a position of power.
Mostly it only seems to matter where an argument is forthright or not where people respect a forthright argument...but were power and social factors intercede...the standards of conduct for most change, and there isn't much reward for those who hold fast to their convictions.
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 12:13 PMexamples of
the irrational reasoning they tend to produce. >>>
This assessment indicates your disapproval with pseudo skepticism... correct ?
You might try inquiry next time. >>>
That's a good suggestion... it's more polite and also more effective.
when the one arguing from a position of fallacy is also arguing from a position of power. >>>
Yes that's a twist.
One thing I could describe that as is the argument of false authority... mixed with stolen concept ?
(the scientists who attempt to alter physical science to indoctrinate people into their religious beliefs)
the standards of conduct for most change>>>
I saw Tony Snow doing this when he had no good response to questions about the recent Cheney scandal...
his reflexive response was to attack by retort to change the subject.
and there isn't much reward for those who hold fast to their convictions.>>>
I see it as a form of self preservation because it is intertwined with identity.
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 4:21 PM"examples of the irrational reasoning they tend to produce. >>>
This assessment indicates your disapproval with pseudo skepticism... correct ?"
I would prefer to refer to it as non-objective skepticism.
Yes I disapprove of that form of skepticism which is not objective.
I think my primary issue as far as MY views go is that in the face of the many quackeries which abound, there is very little attention paid to the discipline of the other side. Often it is totally ignored.
I have other views, as i said i agree with parts of the post and not with others, for the most part I am undecided.
Why not offer your views on it, it would help me acquire a more precisely objective understanding of the thing.
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 11:47 AM"I agree with the assertion that many of the descriptions of pseudoskepticism have a high frequency... "
What does this even mean?!!!!
it's an incomplete sentence.
Frequency....of? what? -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Mon, July 16, 2007 - 8:58 AMthat many of the descriptions of pseudoskepticism have a high frequency>>>>
On the internet I see these fallacies frequently.
Rather than the sort of editorial list you posted...
This is more helpful to me.
plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism/#6
or this
www.skeptic.com/
Though Sometimes it is more useful to consider that... it is more appropriate not to debunk others beliefs and to just disengage.
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 11:06 AMMike - you are awesome
.......not being facetious either.
~L
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 11:09 AMMike - you're awesome.......not an ounce of facetiousness in that comment either
~L -
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Re: More information on *PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM* or Pseudoskepticism.
Sun, July 15, 2007 - 11:12 AMfuckin' computer - oh well ......consider the duplicate posts mere reiteration
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Re: PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM
Thu, August 9, 2007 - 8:10 PMJust joined this tribe, HI everyone, Im tom.
I actually laughed out load when I read Mikes first comment. I for one thought he was joking.
when I read the first post, and I never say this, I asked myself "why?"
reading the whole thing, I could picture you two naked in borders wrestling.
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